Are Some Spirits Spiteful?

[Vargtid]

I don't think so.  I believe that what Christians think is that demons exist.  I have faced them hundreds of times.

My belief is that, and you must realize how hard it is for spirits to climb uphill to reach us through the door, that they must grasp at our most sensitive emotions to reach us.  This emotion is fear.  It is our most vulnerable point, and thus the most easily grasped from the other side of the door.  I say that these "demons" are simply spirits misunderstood by the unitiated, grasping at the nearest threads of our soul that they can from the other side of the door.

I do believe that many of their wide-spread beliefs hold weight.  I often, especially recently, smell sulfur and feel cold drafts (even though my house is at a constant 70f temp).  I don't fear them.  They pull on the dangling hairs of our deepest fears because it's their way of reaching out.  

We know not to fear, but may not know why.  This is why.  I listen to them and understand that it is through images with which they can communicate.  I have no fear, and assume that, although I am new here, none of you do either.

I don't believe there is spite or malicious intent.  However - this is exactly what Christians say is the "Devil" luring us in by lies. 

Give me your opinions.

-Varg

[holly]

My point of view is that the idea of 'spite' or 'maliciousness' manifests when the intents of two entities don't agree. For instance, if a human recognizes that the other entity doesn't agree to its intent, it's perception could be that the other entity is being spiteful or malicious. Depending on the makeup (patterns/beliefs/behaviors/awareness/perception) of that human, it could use a whole host of different adjectives to describe that non-agreement, from evil, scary, bothersome, irritating, etc.

My belief is that we live in a predatory universe… not in an evil/good kind of way… but just in a way that, well, things wanna live, and they have to eat/acquire energy to live, and so they'll do what they need to in order to survive. Some things eat material things like plants, animals, oxygen, carbon dioxide, etc... and other things eat energetic things like certain emotions, including fear. As a species, humans provide a lot of fear and other emotions. So, we humans can provide some good food for other entities that thrive on that sort of thing.

Holly

[Vargtid]

On 1/13/2022 at 8:07 AM, holly said:

My point of view is that the idea of 'spite' or 'maliciousness' manifests when the intents of two entities don't agree. For instance, if a human recognizes that the other entity doesn't agree to its intent, it's perception could be that the other entity is being spiteful or malicious. Depending on the makeup (patterns/beliefs/behaviors/awareness/perception) of that human, it could use a whole host of different adjectives to describe that non-agreement, from evil, scary, bothersome, irritating, etc.

My belief is that we live in a predatory universe… not in an evil/good kind of way… but just in a way that, well, things wanna live, and they have to eat/acquire energy to live, and so they'll do what they need to in order to survive. Some things eat material things like plants, animals, oxygen, carbon dioxide, etc... and other things eat energetic things like certain emotions, including fear. As a species, humans provide a lot of fear and other emotions. So, we humans can provide some good food for other entities that thrive on that sort of thing.

Holly

Holly,

Thank you for your reply.  I've read it a few times and am still stewing a bit on it; recalling memories of past encounters, and I do believe you make a valid point to my inquiry.

There was one night I spent all night outside in the desert alone and some of the spirits had guns.  I recall one in particular hiding in the shadows with a suppressed pistol, shooting at me and I could hear and see the bullet shots hitting right near me.  However I wasn't afraid.  I figured that because I'm into firearms, that was the part he was reaching.  I could sense and hear their footsteps, but with me I had a motion-detecting light, and none of them set it off.  That was my compass that night as to what was real or not.  (That's a great idea, I think btw.  You may be able to see and even hear them, but I've yet to have one set off a motion sensor  )

On a different night, I was here at my house with another.  I do live alone in the desert.  I had another guy with me, and we saw many of the same things.  Two of which stand out:  There was a search party of spirits, I suppose you could say, out in my yard with flashlights, searching.  I am more experienced than he is and so I knew they where not really here.  That said, he was scared that night of them.  We called them "the flashlight people".  I heard him muttering as he curled up in a ball about an airplane accident or something from the past, completely unconcious of what he was saying.  I've been meaning to look into that to see if these spirits were relics of a tragedy from the past, but to be honest I've been a bit afraid to research it because I feared it true.

The other of that night, the one I just mentioned was the woman in white.  This is something I've seen many times before:  a spirit walking from one place towards me, and then resetting and repeating.  Sometimes I've watched them for hours.  This woman in the white dress was walking uphill from my neighbor's house towards mine, seemingly forever stuck in slow motion.  I spotted her from my upstairs window with binoculars and handed them to my friend and asked him if he saw her too.  He became too scared and curled up on my bed.

My thought is that they reach out to speak to us through symbols.  Symbols that our mind can understand as I mentioned in my OP, but there were a few nights in a row where everything my friend and I shared.  So there's that.  I will read your post again, because I did find it provoking.

Thank you so much

-Varg.

[Vargtid]

And as a postscript, I practice only with ritual, and food and sleep deprivation... or taking myself near death, as my ancestors have done.  I have zero judgments, but I don't use hallucinogens.  If that was a pondering of yours.

-Varg

Edited January 15, 2022 by Vargtid

[Moonshadow]

Hello again.
 

Just to add to what Holly said about the nature of the universe as predatory, there is such a myriad of entities out there. In our tradition we have seen that when a human being passes from life, their energy unravels and goes back to what we call the pool of human energy however sometimes people who have died traumatic deaths, as you described, leave some of their emotional energy here. Sometimes clusters of the residual energy from different people can be drawn together to form what is known as a poltergeist. These also create cold spots and smells of sulfur and are drawn to emotionally troubled people.

I have also encountered what is known as demons, twice, when you encounter one will know, they are a very different beast. The universe can be looked at as having a creative and a destructive side, each has a role to play in the cycles of life and death. The best thing I can say to anyone is try to heal yourself as much as possible before dancing with anything you encounter. That way you can stand in your own powerful, fully, and act from that position.

We focus so much on self-healing in this tradition so that any spirit or entity cannot hook on to your unhealed parts, among other reasons like being free in the world of Man- people also like to hook your energy too and take your power from you. Better to be detached, healed, free. We like to have full control of ourselves, for we know that sometimes entities (or people) find those places in our energy they can hook on to and as Holly described, feed, or make agreements with us that we aren’t  fully conscious of. Nothing or anyone has the right to your energy but you.

You sound like you lead an interesting life, Vargtid, but it’s ok to get a good night’s sleep. In fact, the dreaming side is such an exciting world. Yes, other entities do exist there that like to feed too but I wouldn’t worry about it so much. 

Symbols are a universal language and act like containers they hold much more than what meets the eye, don’t they?

e.

[Vargtid]

e,

I am well aware of what I know of "demons", widely-called Shadow People by travelers.

I want to give a quote from a favorite poem of mine by Robert Frost:

"The night is long, dark, and deep,
But I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep.
And miles to go before I sleep."

I do have the full poem here, but you get the meaning (although I think it's actually a quasi-creepy Christmas poem, I read that last stanza and relate).  I follow the beliefs I do, but I do live in the Southwest of the US, and have kind of been looking around for groups here for vision quests in huts or the like.  And as I've always believed - even though many Shaman belong to different faiths, we share so much in common all over the world.  And that interests me.

-Varg

Edited January 15, 2022 by Vargtid

[Moonshadow]

Well said— energetic truth is energetic truth no matter what tradition you follow.

Also, great poem, I understand.

e.

[silenceseeker]

8 hours ago, Vargtid said:

The other of that night, the one I just mentioned was the woman in white.  This is something I've seen many times before:  a spirit walking from one place towards me, and then resetting and repeating.  Sometimes I've watched them for hours.  This woman in the white dress was walking uphill from my neighbor's house towards mine, seemingly forever stuck in slow motion.  I spotted her from my upstairs window with binoculars and handed them to my friend and asked him if he saw her too.  He became too scared and curled up on my bed.

My thought is that they reach out to speak to us through symbols.  Symbols that our mind can understand as I mentioned in my OP, but there were a few nights in a row where everything my friend and I shared.  So there's that.  I will read your post again, because I did find it provoking.

 

Just going to jump in here with my opinion. Although we Makers agree that there are general symbols and ways of interpreting energetic communication that often transcribe the same meaning across different individual human experiences with them, we've found that people are so individual in how they process information through their own window of perception that we encourage people to create their own catalog of meaning of their experiences. So, one symbol may mean something for you and something else for me. We may both see the same woman in the white dress walking slowly up the hill yet pull different meaning from it. Or, we may see different imagery with the same meaning. You may see a woman in a white dress walking slowly uphill and I may see a man dressed as a preacher struggling to pull a cart uphill or through mud and yet we might receive the same meaning from it based on our personal history and energetic makeup. That description is really oversimplifying it but I hope you see where I'm going with it. So in the maker tradition, which most of the people here on this forum  are part of, we don't have a huge shared catalogue of interpretational images or symbols that we reference, although we do have some. Instead, we strive to create our own personal libraries of meaning as they tend to be more accurate in the long run.

 

 

[Vargtid]

25 minutes ago, silenceseeker said:

Although we Makers agree that there are general symbols and ways of interpreting energetic communication that often transcribe the same meaning across different individual human experiences with them, we've found that people are so individual in how they process information through their own window of perception that we encourage people to create their own catalog of meaning of their experiences. So, one symbol may mean something for you and something else for me.

Thank you for your reply, ma'am

We do have our individual experiences, and most of mine are built from my tradition and from books that are old.  Although I do run an internet-based business, I don't keep up with... basically any new things that come up.  That said, what are 'Makers'?  I've never heard this term.

I've been spending more time on the forums here, and here specifically and reading of traditions I know not of.  I'm always open to learn.  That alone, I feel, is one of the base hallmarks of the Shaman.  Of my hundreds of books, I do know the one that inspired me to explore the world of the Shaman; an 800-year-old book posthumously titled "the Poetic Edda".  From there I worked up, but I keep up with very little.  Saying that, when you say, "we Makers", and as I am new to the forum here, I do wish to know what you mean.

Thank you
-Varg

Edited January 15, 2022 by Vargtid

[Vargtid]

Silenceseker,

I searched on my own and mostly answered my own question from a post from you many years ago.  I am new to the forum, but am reading that post now.  As my name implies I am not a student, but a teacher.  But I am reading that article now.  No need to reply.

That said, though I may never again be a "student", I'm an absorber of knowledge.  I may never adopt another's ideas, and call me single-minded, but I do have the ᚹᚨᛚᚾᚢᛏ tattooed on my shoulder.  That is a life-long commitment to a Shamanic tradition.  However, I can always learn more.  Thank you for the article.  I am new to the site and still finding things

-Varg

[silenceseeker]

Of course, Vargtid, it's very understandable that you've never heard of the makers, which you are probably learning why from the older posts but our tradition has been off the radar for about 600 years now and prior to that, it looked different, it was more like traditional shamanism.

Understood on your commitment, Makers have a commitment to the tradition too but I'm glad you are open to learning more, I think it helps us all to keep learning and sharing between traditions.  If you have a site that you could share about your tradition, I would appreciate it although it might not stay due to forum rules/restrictions on posts leading off this forum.

Let me know if you have any questions.

Lorrie 

[Vargtid]

Silenceseeker,

Sure, and again, I thank you for the acceptance.  I am still reading about Makers.  As I said I am a teacher but I'm open to learning.  That said, here is a link to a script in Old Norse, as well as a few translations in English.

If there's one thing about Shamanism It's always learning more.

https://notendur.hi.is/haukurth/norse/reader/runatal.html

[Vargtid]

I'm still learning more about your site, and respecting what you  have to teach.

[Vargtid]

even that text won't do it, so I'll Transcribe it on my own (realize I'm using a Russian keyboard), so yeah..... I'll pull up the book and do it on my own..

Okay, admittedly I tried to transcribe it on my own.... let's see...

 Eff me, it's an 800 year-old book, so I'll have to type out just the main part.  It's hard af to find it on Google to link.
 

"I wot that I hung     on that wind-tossed tree
           all of nights nine,
wounded by spear,    bespoken to Odin,
           bespoken myself to myself,
{upon that tree        of which none telleth
           from what roots it doth rise].

Neither horn they upheld           nor handed me bread;
            I looked below me----
            aloud I cried--------
caught up the runes,          caught them up wailing,
              thence to the ground fell again."

Okay, sorry, but you understand, that's as much as I care to translate from that atm, but what it's talking about there and thereafter is Odin's sacrifice to himself, to himself, to gain the knowledge of 18 spells.  For nine days and nine nights without food or water he hung himself from that tree to gain the knowledge.  These 18 spells are engraved, perhaps conveniently, on the precise 18 spots on my fingers.  The 18 spells he spoke of I won't transcribe here, but you get the drift.  

He hung himself for 9 days and 9 days, refusing food or drink to gain this knowledge.  This is one of the precursors to Christ's crucifixion, so it does bear .... whatever today..... the point it this was .. well you get it.

This is where I first learned this from.  From an 800 y/o book, and I'm sorry that I can't move it over right now but it takes time and I can't find it on google.  The point is that we all have such different views, and I'm working on learning yours.  I am.. and yes, there are precisely 18 spots on the knuckles, and I do have those spells tattoed on each.    

I found your site for various reasons and would be more than happy to share what I know, but first I am reading to learn your tradition.
In good regards-
-Varg

[holly]

Hi Varg, 

I like your compass technique. That's a good one. I had a mentor that told me to always have three 'tests' to help me navigate what's in this layer/time/space or not. That would be a good one to use, too. 

It's interesting your take on the flashlight people, and it ties in with what Lorrie said about our individual lexicon of symbols/meanings. I've had an experience on my land in Northern Wisconsin with a sort of flashlight people... it was utterly fascinating and went on in various parts of the land for most of the evening. In fact, those flashlights were so bright I thought someone was messing with me, at first. But the circumstances would have made it impossible, as some of the orange lights literally lit up the entire section of treetops in the forest. One white light was so big and bright moving through the nearby pine tree stand, it was like they had one of those giant moving lights folks point up to the sky during big entertainment events. And, when the light spilled out onto the grass, it formed a straight spectrum rainbow light. Fun.  But, my personal interpretation of who they were and what they were doing was different. At that time, I was working very closely with the land spirits and, in particular, giving medicine to several sick oaks w/wilt and had made an agreement with the local land spirits that I would do my part to help the trees, if they would do their part to help, too. And I gave them some treats/offerings to make the agreement so. It was later that night after the treat giving, that I perceived the land spirits were coming by to give me their agreement acceptance via making such an incredible light show. Maybe that was the reason, maybe not, but my window of perception pointed me into that rationale.

Holly

 

[Vargtid]

Wow.

I apologize Holly, but your message rang with me.  Thank you for responding.

Idk how to reply to this.  It's rare that I'm at a loss for words.  I actually had to take 10 there and have a smoke... yes, I understand.  And not only that but the insight you gave to me in your message.

There are different types of Shamans, and I post here in General because I feel like I don't belong in the others.  I seek out spirits, just as I can tell you do as well from your reply.  I literally have spirits' names tattooed on my chest because of our relation and the impact they have had upon me.  That said, I  need to read your message a few more times.  So yeah - what you replied rings with me 100%

-Varg

[Vargtid]

  (deleted post)

Edited January 17, 2022 by Vargtid

[Moonshadow]

I have to say I’m really enjoying this exchange and comparison of traditions. 

About your comment on Odin, Vargtid, on how religions draw from more ancient practices, last November I was walking in the mountains in Oregon and was struck by how beautiful the pine trees looked, decorated by fall leaves. It reminded me of how Dec 25th was originally a sacred day for Druids.
 

The way you've tattooed spells on your knuckles is intriguing: one thing I have seen is that energetic truth is the same across all traditions, and that the way energy moves is often reflected in the physical world. We use the spiral a lot in this tradition, for example, because it represents the motion of the physical universe, among other things.

e.

[Vargtid]

E,

I do, as it happens, have a spiral tattooed on my left shoulder.

I do respect all walks of life, and as it happens of my 2k or so books that I own I have amongst them 7 or so bibles.  However that is alongside 'Divine Comedy', 'Paradise Lost', and others.

Eman, this is for you:  I was at a tattoo shop some time ago.... probably like 15 years ago and saw this book; one which I don't have in my collection.  I was sitting on the couch waiting for my turn in the chair so to speak.  The book was titled 'Agony and Alcheny', and it was how the ink and pain of tattoos actually imprint things within our being.  It's something to think about, and honestly something I'd never thought about until that time.  So yes, this is one reason I love learning other traditions and I know I need to get out of the Stone Age and am reading on your site now.

I am bound to Odin and the beliefs of my people forever, but what is a Shaman if he doesn't step outside of his bounds?

Thank you

-Varg

(PS) I even go to church fairly regularly.  Why?  Because it's most often such a positive environment. 

Edited January 17, 2022 by Vargtid

[holly]

On 1/16/2022 at 9:31 AM, holly said:

It was later that night after the treat giving, that I perceived the land spirits were coming by to give me their agreement acceptance via making such an incredible light show. Maybe that was the reason, maybe not, but my window of perception pointed me into that rationale.

Varg,

I forgot to mention the defining thing that really made my connection to my reasoning... lol... 

During that night when everything was going on, there were these two really bright white flashlights making squiggles above and below a broken part of a tree nearby. They were making these really rapid zig-zag movements for quite a while, and, to me, it seemed like they were doing a healing on the tree. That was my message that they, too, were doing their part to help. 

Re: tattoos -- personally, I don't have any, but sometimes I finger draw symbols on my skin.

Holly